Legislature(1993 - 1994)

02/24/1993 03:30 PM Senate JUD

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
                                                                               
                                                                               
                     JOINT HOUSE AND SENATE                                    
                  JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEES                                
                        February 24, 1993                                      
                            3:30 p.m.                                          
                                                                               
                                                                               
  HOUSE MEMBERS PRESENT                                                        
                                                                               
  Rep. Brian Porter                                                            
  Rep. Jeannette James                                                         
  Rep. Gail Phillips                                                           
  Rep. Joe Green                                                               
  Rep. Pete Kott                                                               
  Rep. Jim Nordlund                                                            
  Rep. Cliff Davidson                                                          
                                                                               
  HOUSE MEMBERS ABSENT                                                         
                                                                               
  None                                                                         
                                                                               
  SENATE MEMBERS PRESENT                                                       
                                                                               
  Sen. Robin Taylor, Chairman                                                  
  Sen. Rick Halford                                                            
  Sen. George Jacko                                                            
  Sen. Suzanne Little                                                          
  Sen. Dave Donley                                                             
                                                                               
  SENATE MEMBERS ABSENT                                                        
                                                                               
  None                                                                         
                                                                               
  OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT                                                    
                                                                               
  Sen. Georgianna Lincoln                                                      
  Sen. Loren Leman                                                             
  Rep. Eileen MacLean                                                          
  Rep. Bill Williams                                                           
  Rep. Jerry Mackie                                                            
  Rep. David Finkelstein                                                       
                                                                               
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
                                                                               
  Confirmation  Hearings  -  Public  Members  of   the  Select                 
  Committee on Legislative Ethics                                              
                                                                               
  WITNESS REGISTER                                                             
                                                                               
  ANNIE LAURIE HOWARD                                                          
  3220 Amber Bay Circle                                                        
  Anchorage, Alaska 99515                                                      
  Phone:  344-9289                                                             
  Position Statement:  Answered committee questions                            
                                                                               
                                                                               
  EDITH VORDERSTRASSE                                                          
  P.O. Box 214                                                                 
  Barrow, Alaska 99723                                                         
  Phone:  852-2010                                                             
  Position Statement:  Answered committee questions                            
                                                                               
  ACTION NARRATIVE                                                             
                                                                               
  TAPE 93-21, SIDE A                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN TAYLOR called the Joint  House and Senate Judiciary                 
  Committee meeting to order at 3:40 p.m.  He noted members of                 
  both  committees who  were present.   He announced  that the                 
  purpose of the meeting was to  review four appointees to the                 
  Select Committee on Legislative Ethics.  He asked Mrs. Annie                 
  Laurie Howard to address the committee first.                                
                                                                               
  Number 045                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. ANNIE LAURIE HOWARD  said that she thought many  of the                 
  committee members knew  her from her  service on the  Alaska                 
  Public  Offices Commission (APOC)  and her  participation in                 
  COGEL, the Congress  on Governmental Ethics Laws.   She said                 
  that she had  applied for a seat on  the Select Committee on                 
  Legislative Ethics because she had  worked closely with Rep.                 
  David  Finkelstein  and  former  Sen.  Virginia  Collins  in                 
  drafting the ethics law that passed the year before.                         
                                                                               
  MRS.  HOWARD  stated  that  she  was  aware that  the  Joint                 
  Judiciary  Committee had  already  interviewed  a number  of                 
  outstanding  nominees,   and  she  had   assumed  that   her                 
  application to serve  on the ethics committee  was not going                 
  to amount to  anything.  She said  that one day earlier  she                 
  had been informed that she was a nominee.                                    
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD stated that she served on the steering committee                 
  of COGEL, an organization  made up of all 50 states and some                 
  foreign countries.  She said  the organization was concerned                 
  with campaign finance and  ethics.  She added that  she felt                 
  very strongly  that the  legislature needed  a very  strong,                 
  non-partisan, apolitical ethics committee.                                   
                                                                               
  Number 107                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON asked  Mrs. Howard to outline the process that                 
  she  had  gone  through in  applying  to  be  on the  ethics                 
  committee.                                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 120                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD responded  that after the  ethics law passed,  a                 
  notice went out asking that members of the public interested                 
  in serving on  the ethics committee submit resumes  to Chief                 
                                                                               
                                                                               
  Justice Moore.   She said  she sent  a resume  to the  Chief                 
  Justice, and received a telephone call from him some time in                 
  November.  He indicated that 84  people had applied to serve                 
  on  the  committee, and  that those  people  who were  to be                 
  nominees would be  notified by  a certain date.   When  that                 
  date had come  and gone, she said, she assumed  that she had                 
  not been selected as a nominee.                                              
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD noted that some of the earlier nominees had been                 
  rejected, but  she had  not given  her application any  more                 
  thought.   She  said  that since  she had  not  been on  the                 
  original list of nominees,  and because she had been  out of                 
  town for a while and involved in other projects, she had not                 
  been thinking  about her application.   The day  before, she                 
  added, she  was going about  her business when  she received                 
  word that she  needed to  go to  Juneau the next  day for  a                 
  confirmation hearing.                                                        
                                                                               
  Number 163                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON asked  Mrs. Howard if she had had time to read                 
  the new ethics law.                                                          
                                                                               
  Number 168                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD replied that she  had read the law, and  in fact                 
  had helped to write it.                                                      
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON thanked Mrs. Howard for being willing to serve                 
  on the ethics committee.                                                     
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD  noted that  there used  to be  only two  public                 
  members on the ethics committee.  She said that public input                 
  was what gave APOC strength, in  her opinion; therefore, she                 
  felt  very  strongly about  the  relatively large  number of                 
  public members on the ethics committee.                                      
                                                                               
  Number 196                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON asked Mrs. Howard about her comments that  she                 
  probably  knew a  great  deal more  about  ethics than  some                 
  legislators  did.   He commented  that ethics  was a  growth                 
  industry.    He  asked Mrs.  Howard  if  she  had ever  been                 
  involved in a political campaign.                                            
                                                                               
  Number 209                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD explained  that one year  she had worked on  Jan                 
  Faiks' campaign.   Shortly after that, she  added, she began                 
  her service on APOC.  During that service, she said, she was                 
  completely apolitical, not  so much  as contributing to  any                 
  political campaigns.  She  said that there was a  great deal                 
  of comfort in being totally absent from the  tribulations of                 
  political parties.                                                           
                                                                               
                                                                               
  Number 225                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON asked Mrs. Howard if she felt that it made any                 
  difference that  there were  partisan labels  on the  public                 
  members of the ethics committee.                                             
                                                                               
  Number 232                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD responded that she did not feel that it made any                 
  difference.  She added that, in her opinion, the only reason                 
  there  were partisan nominees  was so that  the public would                 
  feel  that  the  nominees  had  been  selected  impartially.                 
  However, she noted that  she felt that the ethics  committee                 
  should be  totally apolitical  and nonpartisan.   She  noted                 
  similarities between  the ethics  committee and  APOC.   She                 
  stated  that  she had  seen no  partisanship  on APOC.   She                 
  expressed her  opinion that ethics  committee members should                 
  be precluded from any political activity whatsoever.                         
                                                                               
  Number 273                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP.  DAVIDSON  asked  if  Mrs.  Howard  believed  that  the                 
  selection process  to date had  been nonpolitical.   He also                 
  asked  Mrs.  Howard   why  she   felt  qualified  to   judge                 
  legislators.                                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 277                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD replied that she did not feel qualified to judge                 
  legislators or anyone else.  She expressed her opinion  that                 
  ethics could  not be  legislated, but  the  only thing  that                 
  could be done  was to  evaluate the ethicalness  of an  act.                 
  She stated that a  person either had ethics or did  not have                 
  ethics.  Mrs. Howard said that what might be ethical for one                 
  person would not necessarily be ethical to another person.                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON  asked if Mrs.  Howard meant that  ethics were                 
  comparative.                                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 288                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD replied that she did  not think that ethics were                 
  comparative.  She asserted her belief that it  was important                 
  that no determinations be  made until all of the  facts were                 
  known.   She stated that  ethics was a nebulous  thing.  She                 
  mentioned  an  instance in  her  past  when, after  an  APOC                 
  hearing, a legislator who appreciated the way  she had voted                 
  sent her roses.   She felt that it was unethical  for her to                 
  accept the  flowers, so she  called the legislator  and told                 
  him that she would  be donating them to the  Pioneer's Home.                 
  She concluded by saying  that it was hard to  define ethics,                 
  but she knew them when she saw them.                                         
                                                                               
                                                                               
  Number 330                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP.  DAVIDSON thanked Mrs.  Howard for  her responses.   He                 
  withdrew his  question about  her opinion  of the  selection                 
  process.                                                                     
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD stated that she  did not think that she had  any                 
  greater handle on  ethics than  anyone else did.   But,  she                 
  said,  she  had  the  advantage  of  learning  about  ethics                 
  committees  in the  other 50  states through  her  work with                 
  COGEL.                                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 340                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. GREEN noted that there had  been a change in acceptable                 
  behavior over the years  and wondered how Mrs.  Howard would                 
  view actions that were acceptable  by today's standards, but                 
  unacceptable when she was younger.                                           
                                                                               
  Number 375                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD  said that  as the  mother of  two sons,  and as                 
  someone who had been  associated with young people over  the                 
  years, she had  to learn to change  some of her views.   She                 
  said  that she had  to recognize that  her sons danced  to a                 
  different drummer  than did she.   She noted that  she had a                 
  degree  in  special  education  and  she  had  learned  that                 
  although  the  Lord might  have  made people  equal  in some                 
  respects,  He  had  not done  so  in  other  respects.   She                 
  commented  that people had  to accept  other people  as they                 
  were.                                                                        
                                                                               
  Number 409                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. GREEN  asked  Mrs.  Howard  if she  would  evaluate  an                 
  identical act, performed by  three different legislators  of                 
  different ages, equally.                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 429                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD said  that her evaluation would  depend entirely                 
  on the circumstances surrounding the  situation.  She stated                 
  that she believed that judgments should not be made relative                 
  to a person's  age.  She remarked that a  person's age might                 
  be a qualifying factor that would come into play.                            
                                                                               
  MRS.  HOWARD  said  that  all  of  the facts  needed  to  be                 
  considered before decisions  could be made about  a person's                 
  behavior.  She noted that each ethics committee member would                 
  carry her or his own mores into the committee with them, but                 
  would  need  to  be  totally impartial.    She  likened  the                 
  committee to a  jury, in  that jurors could  not enter  jury                 
  service with their own prejudices.  Jurors have to listen to                 
  the facts  and make  a determination based  on those  facts.                 
                                                                               
                                                                               
  She added that a juror could not  be biased by a defendant's                 
  status, but needed to be completely impartial.                               
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD stated that nothing was either totally black  or                 
  totally white.  She added that one's circumstances needed to                 
  be  taken  into  consideration when  a  situation  was being                 
  evaluated.                                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 498                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. GREEN sought to encapsulize Mrs. Howard's response.                     
                                                                               
  Number 490                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD said there might  be circumstances where the age                 
  of an individual  was relevant, as  the individual might  be                 
  senile.                                                                      
                                                                               
  Number 500                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT asked  Mrs. Howard if  she had any close  economic                 
  associations or personal relationships  with anyone who  was                 
  involved with state government.                                              
                                                                               
  Number 507                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD noted that she  had many friends, acquaintances,                 
  and  associates  who  were  involved  in  state  government.                 
  However, she had no familial  or business relationships with                 
  any of those people.                                                         
                                                                               
  Number 522                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP.  KOTT  mentioned  that  Mrs.  Howard  had  put  down  a                 
  legislator  as a personal reference on  her application.  He                 
  asked  her  to   comment  on  her  relationship   with  that                 
  legislator,  and  whether  or  not  that relationship  would                 
  affect her impartiality.                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 529                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.  HOWARD  replied  that Senator  Kerttula  had  taken an                 
  interest  in her  a number  of years  ago when she  was ill.                 
  But, she said, she did not share a close personal friendship                 
  with  him.   She  said  that  regardless of  who  the ethics                 
  committee  was evaluating,  she would  give her  or  him the                 
  benefit  of  the  doubt  and  listen  to all  of  the  facts                 
  surrounding an allegation.                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 560                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP.  KOTT  asked  Mrs. Howard  to  comment  on what  ethics                 
  problems she believed to exist currently.                                    
                                                                               
                                                                               
  Number 566                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.  HOWARD  commented  that  the  state of  Louisiana  had                 
  decided to  abolish its  ethics law.   She  added that  some                 
  other  states were  combining  ethics  and campaign  finance                 
  laws, which  she thought was  a good  idea.  She  noted that                 
  South Carolina did not have an ethics watchdog group.                        
                                                                               
  Number 601                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN TAYLOR stated that  he did not want anyone  to feel                 
  limited in time or scope of discussion.                                      
                                                                               
  Number 609                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP.  PORTER  asked  Mrs. Howard  if  she  could impartially                 
  investigate an  allegation against  him, in  light of  their                 
  past association with the Neighborhood Watch program.                        
                                                                               
  Number 617                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD cited an example from her past, in which she had                 
  impartially evaluated an acquaintance.                                       
                                                                               
  Number 626                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PORTER asked Mrs. Howard if she had formed any opinions                 
  about recent allegations against legislators.                                
                                                                               
  Number 633                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD replied that because she  knew that there was an                 
  outside chance that she  might be nominated to serve  on the                 
  ethics committee, she  had refused to  pay any attention  to                 
  accounts of the allegations.  She commented that  during her                 
  tenure with APOC,  the members would be sent  information in                 
  advance  of meetings.  She  commented that it was difficult,                 
  in those circumstances,  not to form a  subconscious opinion                 
  before arriving at the meeting.                                              
                                                                               
  Number 663                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP.  PHILLIPS  commented on  Mrs.  Howard's work  with Rep.                 
  Finkelstein and former  Sen. Collins on drafting  the ethics                 
  law, and also on her work with COGEL.  She asked Mrs. Howard                 
  if she were encouraged  by any legislator to apply  to serve                 
  on the ethics committee.                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 684                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD  said that no  legislator had encouraged  her to                 
  apply.                                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 686                                                                   
                                                                               
                                                                               
  REP.  PHILLIPS  noted  that  the  ethics  law  required  the                 
  legislature  to   select  public  members  based   on  party                 
  affiliation.    She  asked  Mrs.  Howard about  her  earlier                 
  statement  that  an  ethics committee  member  needed  to be                 
  totally nonpolitical.  She asked if Mrs. Howard thought that                 
  it was possible for a person to be totally nonpolitical on a                 
  committee like the ethics committee.                                         
                                                                               
  Number 694                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD said she thought it  was indeed possible, as she                 
  was totally nonpolitical during her APOC service.  She  said                 
  that committee members  would not be denied  the opportunity                 
  to  register  and vote,  but  would  not participate  in  or                 
  contribute to campaigns.  She said members would go into the                 
  committee "washed clean" of any political philosophy.                        
                                                                               
  Number 719                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS asked Mrs. Howard if she would have difficulty                 
  spending long periods of time in Juneau working on committee                 
  business.                                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 724                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.  HOWARD  responded  that  she  would  have  no  problem                 
  spending time in  Juneau on committee  business.  She  noted                 
  that she and her husband traveled  frequently, and that on a                 
  couple  of occasions urgent  APOC business had  come up, but                 
  she was able to be reached by telephone.                                     
                                                                               
  Number 734                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS asked Mrs. Howard to explain why she felt that                 
  it  was  important  to have  an  ethics  law  and an  ethics                 
  committee.                                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 738                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD commented  that ethics could not  be legislated,                 
  but perceived  breaches in ethics  could be penalized.   She                 
  said it was  important to  deal with  perceived breaches  of                 
  ethics in an arena  apart from the rest of  the legislature.                 
  She  added  that in  order  to resolve  situations involving                 
  ethics, it was important that people not closely allied with                 
  the subject of the investigation were involved.                              
                                                                               
  Number 757                                                                   
                                                                               
  SEN. LITTLE thanked Mrs. Howard for applying to serve on the                 
  ethics committee.   She asked Mrs.  Howard if she felt  that                 
  unethical behavior among legislators could be changed.                       
                                                                               
                                                                               
  Number 764                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD replied that an attempt should be made to change                 
  unethical behavior.   She  added that  she did  not see  the                 
  ethics  committee   as  a  "missionary  committee,"   but  a                 
  committee that evaluated  specific incidents or allegations.                 
  She said it was her hope that no  business would come before                 
  the committee,  because that  would mean  that no  unethical                 
  behavior had occurred.                                                       
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD commented  that she did not  see the committee's                 
  role as setting out to  change the behavior of  legislators.                 
  She added  her belief  that  people were  either ethical  or                 
  unethical.    She  referred to  the  ethics  committee  as a                 
  "watchdog"  organization  that  might  serve  as  a  partial                 
  deterrent.  She said she did not think that it was up to the                 
  committee to tell an individual how to live.                                 
                                                                               
  TAPE 93-21, SIDE B                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
                                                                               
  SEN. LITTLE asked Mrs. Howard if she had dealt with pressure                 
  from the media in  the past, and whether she  perceived that                 
  it would be a problem if she served on the ethics committee.                 
                                                                               
  Number 006                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD replied that she  had experienced constant media                 
  pressure during  her APOC service.   She explained  that she                 
  had  learned  to  dodge  the  press  as well  as  to  answer                 
  questions from the media.                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 017                                                                   
                                                                               
  SEN. LITTLE asked Mrs.  Howard if she had made  any comments                 
  to her friends  about the recent allegations  raised against                 
  legislators.                                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 025                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD  said that she had avoided making comments about                 
  the  allegations because  she had  applied to  serve on  the                 
  ethics committee.                                                            
                                                                               
  (Sen. Donley arrived.)                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 041                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES congratulated Mrs. Howard for being selected as a                 
  nominee.  She also told Mrs. Howard that she appreciated her                 
  candor.   She asked Mrs.  Howard if her  personal philosophy                 
  would come into play during her deliberations as a member of                 
  the ethics committee.                                                        
                                                                               
                                                                               
  Number 069                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD said that  people were who they were  because of                 
  conviction.  She stated that her service on APOC had been an                 
  education and a tremendous  growth experience for her.   She                 
  said that  when sitting on  the ethics committee,  one would                 
  have to disqualify  one's personal  convictions and look  at                 
  the facts.                                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 109                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES commented that there  was a public perception  of                 
  unethical behavior among legislators.  She asked Mrs. Howard                 
  if she agreed that  the ethics law and the  ethics committee                 
  might set the public's mind at ease to some extent.                          
                                                                               
  Number 125                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.  HOWARD said  that she  did not  necessarily  feel that                 
  legislators were unethical.  She said that legislators, like                 
  all  human beings, made  mistakes.  She  noted that external                 
  data might  give a person a certain  perception, but setting                 
  aside one's  own judgmental factors and looking at the facts                 
  would lead one to a conclusion.                                              
                                                                               
  Number 164                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. GREEN noted that perceptions were often formed rapidly.                 
  He asked Mrs. Howard how she separated fact from fiction.                    
                                                                               
  Number 206                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD  replied that  one had  to take  things at  face                 
  value, up to a  point.  She added that she  liked to believe                 
  that she had  sufficient intelligence  to make  evaluations.                 
  She said she asked questions and used her judgment.                          
                                                                               
  Number 248                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON commented that anyone could accuse anyone else                 
  of anything at any time.   He asked how she would deal  with                 
  false accusations.                                                           
                                                                               
  Number 260                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD replied  that she would  become incensed with  a                 
  person who made a false accusation.   She thought that false                 
  accusers should be penalized.                                                
                                                                               
  Number 275                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON asked  Mrs. Howard if  she hastily judged  the                 
  press.                                                                       
                                                                               
                                                                               
  Number 280                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD  replied  that she  did  not hastily  judge  the                 
  press, but she  did challenge  erroneous statements made  by                 
  the media.  She  cited an example in  which a statement  had                 
  been  falsely  attributed to  her  by  the press.    She had                 
  insisted on a retraction.                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 310                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT asked Mrs. Howard if  she felt that there ought to                 
  be  different standards  applied  to  public officials  than                 
  those applied to people in other occupations.                                
                                                                               
  Number 321                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD  said that she did  feel that way, to  a certain                 
  extent.  She commented that the people entrusted legislators                 
  with running the state, and because  of this, they should be                 
  circumspect.   She  stated  that she  did  not believe  that                 
  legislators as  a  group were  unethical.   She  added  that                 
  candidates for office  should be  scrutinized.  Mrs.  Howard                 
  noted  that public  officials should  not be expected  to be                 
  perfect,  as  all people  made  mistakes and  regretted past                 
  actions.  She stated that each person needed to do the  best                 
  that she or he could.                                                        
                                                                               
  Number 370                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT asked  how she would  respond to a statement  that                 
  there  was  no  difference between  unethical  behavior  and                 
  violating a law.                                                             
                                                                               
  Number 375                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.  HOWARD  replied  that  Rep.  Kott  had  mentioned  two                 
  different  things.   She  said violating  a  law was  not an                 
  ethical thing  to do, but  it depended on  the circumstances                 
  and on the law.  She said it was her understanding  that the                 
  ethics committee would not deal with criminal acts and civil                 
  violations,  but with  ethics.   She stated that  an ethical                 
  violation was not necessarily a violation of the law.                        
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD noted  that one could not place ethics  in a box                 
  and say "this is ethics."  One could only penalize unethical                 
  behavior.                                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 407                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked  Mrs. Howard if she had in  mind a set                 
  grouping of concepts,  laws, moralities, or ideals  that she                 
  considered to be "ethical."                                                  
                                                                               
  Number 419                                                                   
                                                                               
                                                                               
  MRS.  HOWARD  replied  that  the  chairman's   question  was                 
  difficult to answer.   She noted that ethics was  a nebulous                 
  quantity.                                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 432                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN  TAYLOR asked Mrs. Howard if  she thought that John                 
  F. Kennedy's womanizing was unethical.                                       
                                                                               
  Number 438                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD replied that she felt that it was not unethical,                 
  unless it had  adversely impacted the administration  of his                 
  presidential duties.  She said she felt that it was a matter                 
  between a man and  his conscience.  She noted that she would                 
  not personally engage  in abortion,  but she felt  it was  a                 
  matter between a woman and her conscience.                                   
                                                                               
  Number 462                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked Mrs. Howard if Gary Hart's conduct had                 
  been unethical.                                                              
                                                                               
  Number 466                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD said  that the Gary  Hart situation was a  moral                 
  matter, not an ethical one.  She said that she viewed ethics                 
  in  relation  to  his duties  as  a  public  official.   She                 
  mentioned Senator Bob Packwood and said that the ethicalness                 
  or unethicalness of his behavior would  depend on how it all                 
  reflected on his job as a public servant.                                    
                                                                               
  Number 485                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN TAYLOR mentioned  Wilbur Mills,  the father of  the                 
  Internal Revenue Code, who was an  alcoholic.  He asked Mrs.                 
  Howard if Mills' alcoholism was unethical.                                   
                                                                               
  Number 497                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD commented that it would depend on whether or not                 
  his alcoholism affected his job as a public servant.                         
                                                                               
  Number 506                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN TAYLOR commented that he was trying to make a point                 
  that there was  a difference between  morality, criminality,                 
  and ethics.                                                                  
                                                                               
  Number 508                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.  HOWARD related  an  incident from  her APOC  tenure in                 
  which a legislator  had castigated her  for the way she  had                 
                                                                               
                                                                               
  voted.  She said she found  that legislator's behavior to be                 
  extremely unethical.                                                         
                                                                               
  Number 544                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP.  NORDLUND  commented  that  Mrs.  Howard's  history  of                 
  political activity troubled some legislators.  He noted that                 
  the  legislature had  rejected another  nominee,  Dr. Rodman                 
  Wilson, because of  his political  activity.  Rep.  Nordlund                 
  asked  Mrs.  Howard   if  she  felt   that  she  should   be                 
  disqualified for the same reason.                                            
                                                                               
  Number 560                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.  HOWARD  responded that  she  had not  been politically                 
  active for the past six and one-half years, since she became                 
  a member of APOC.                                                            
                                                                               
  Number 577                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON commented that Chairman  Taylor could probably                 
  come up with less-partisan examples of unethical behavior if                 
  he tried.                                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 588                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP.  FINKELSTEIN asked  Mrs. Howard  if  she felt  that Dr.                 
  Wilson's  political  involvement  had  interfered  with  his                 
  ability to be objective while serving on APOC.                               
                                                                               
  Number 592                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.  HOWARD  replied  that   Dr.  Wilson's  past  political                 
  activity had not interfered with his work on APOC.                           
                                                                               
  Number 595                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. FINKELSTEIN commented that the ethics law required that                 
  the   ethics   committee  apply   employment  discrimination                 
  statutes,   including   sexual   harassment    statutes   to                 
  legislators.   He said that  those statutes did  not require                 
  that sexual harassment  activities affected the "harasser's"                 
  work.                                                                        
                                                                               
  Number 610                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. HOWARD replied that  harassment would definitely affect                 
  a public official's work.                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 617                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP.  PHILLIPS  expressed  her  opinion  that  Dr.  Wilson's                 
  rejection had nothing  to do with his  political activities,                 
                                                                               
                                                                               
  but  rather  his   comments  to   the  press  about   recent                 
  allegations against legislators.                                             
                                                                               
  Number 635                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN TAYLOR thanked Mrs. Howard for appearing before the                 
  committee.  He announced  that there would be a  five minute                 
  break   before   the   committee  heard   from   Mrs.  Edith                 
  Vorderstrasse.   He  noted that  due  to a  Senate  majority                 
  caucus at 6:30  p.m., the hearings  would spill over to  the                 
  next day.                                                                    
                                                                               
  TAPE 93-22, SIDE A                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN  TAYLOR  reconvened the  meeting at  5:13 p.m.   He                 
  asked EDITH VORDERSTRASSE  to come  forward and address  the                 
  committee.  He  notified VIRGINIA JOHNSON and  SHIRLEY MCCOY                 
  that they would  appear before  the committee the  following                 
  afternoon.  He asked Mrs. Vorderstrasse if she would like to                 
  offer an opening statement.                                                  
                                                                               
  Number 027                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. EDITH VORDERSTRASSE said that she  had applied to serve                 
  on  the  ethics   committee  because  she  felt   that  each                 
  individual should  be responsible  for her  or his  actions.                 
  She said  that she felt that  she was qualified to  serve on                 
  the ethics committee because of her involvement with several                 
  boards.   She noted  that the North  Slope Borough personnel                 
  board was similar  to the ethics  committee in that  members                 
  heard all sides of an issue and then made a decision.                        
                                                                               
  MRS.  VORDERSTRASSE  stated that  her  family supported  her                 
  decision to apply  to serve  on the ethics  committee.   She                 
  mentioned  that she had  heard on the  radio that interested                 
  members of the public were being asked to apply for seats on                 
  the ethics committee.  She applied  and was notified in late                 
  December that she  was not  one of the  top ten  applicants.                 
  She said that  Chief Justice Moore  contacted her two  weeks                 
  earlier to ask if she were still interested in being  on the                 
  committee.  She  replied that she was  still interested, and                 
  about four days later,  Chief Justice Moore called  again to                 
  say that her name would be forwarded to the legislature.                     
                                                                               
  Number 082                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PORTER mentioned that Mrs. Vorderstrasse had worked for                 
  Rep. Eileen MacLean.   He  asked if she  could be  impartial                 
  when hearing allegations against Rep. MacLean.                               
                                                                               
  Number 099                                                                   
                                                                               
                                                                               
  MRS.  VORDERSTRASSE replied that she  felt that she could be                 
  impartial.   She added  that she  knew several  legislators.                 
  She said she did not make decisions based on media accounts,                 
  but rather on what was brought before her during a hearing.                  
                                                                               
  Number 119                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PORTER asked Mrs. Vorderstrasse if she thought that the                 
  public  would  perceive  a  problem,  recognizing  her  past                 
  relationships  with legislators,  with  her  serving on  the                 
  ethics committee.                                                            
                                                                               
  Number 128                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.  VORDERSTRASSE  responded  that  someone  would  always                 
  perceive a conflict of interest in a given situation.                        
                                                                               
  Number 144                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PORTER asked  Mrs. Vorderstrasse if she  had formed any                 
  opinions about recent allegations made against legislators.                  
                                                                               
  Number 148                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE indicated  that she had not,  because she                 
  had applied to  serve on  the ethics committee.   She  added                 
  that she could not  make a decision based on accounts in the                 
  press.                                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 165                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS  questioned Mrs. Vorderstrasse  on a statement                 
  in  her cover  letter  which said,  "we  must quit  excusing                 
  unethical  behavior  of  our  leaders."     She  asked  Mrs.                 
  Vorderstrasse to explain what she  perceived to be unethical                 
  behavior.                                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 171                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE replied that what might be ethical to her                 
  might not be  ethical to  someone else.   Regarding John  F.                 
  Kennedy, she said that  she did not know whether  or not the                 
  allegations against him  were true, and therefore  could not                 
  comment on whether  his behavior  was ethical or  not.   She                 
  said that  individuals needed  to be  responsible for  their                 
  actions.   She noted  that elected  officials were there  to                 
  represent their constituents  and the state of  Alaska.  She                 
  said  public officials had  been entrusted to  act for their                 
  constituents' and the state's best interests.                                
                                                                               
  Number 205                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS asked Mrs. Vorderstrasse if she perceived that                 
  the legislature was  taking unethical  actions that she  was                 
                                                                               
                                                                               
  uncomfortable about, or  that she would  hesitate to make  a                 
  decision  about,  if  she  were   appointed  to  the  ethics                 
  committee.                                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 215                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE replied that  she did not think so.   She                 
  added that no evidence had been brought before her, and what                 
  she was told by the press was not necessarily true.                          
                                                                               
  Number 227                                                                   
                                                                               
  SEN. LITTLE thanked Mrs. Vorderstrasse for applying to serve                 
  on the  ethics committee.   She asked Mrs.  Vorderstrasse if                 
  she would  have any  difficulty spending  time in  Juneau on                 
  ethics committee business.                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 241                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.  VORDERSTRASSE  said  that  she  saw  no  problem  with                 
  spending time in Juneau.                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 258                                                                   
                                                                               
  SEN. LITTLE asked  Mrs. Vorderstrasse if she  had experience                 
  dealing with the press, and whether or not she perceived the                 
  media pressure  that  the  ethics  committee  members  would                 
  likely endure as a problem.                                                  
                                                                               
  Number 266                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE  indicated that  she had  no problems  in                 
  dealing with the press in the past, as a school board member                 
  and a Native corporation board member.                                       
                                                                               
  Number 282                                                                   
                                                                               
  SEN. LITTLE asked  Mrs. Vorderstrasse if she  had formed any                 
  opinions about recent allegations against legislators.                       
                                                                               
  Number 288                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.   VORDERSTRASSE   replied   that  she   had   drawn  no                 
  conclusions,  although the newspapers  were full of articles                 
  about the allegations.                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 297                                                                   
                                                                               
  SEN. JACKO thanked Mrs. Vorderstrasse  for applying to serve                 
  on  the ethics  committee.   He asked  her if  she had  been                 
  referring  to the public's  perception that  the legislature                 
  engaged   in  unethical   behavior   when   she  wrote   the                 
  aforementioned statement in her cover letter.                                
                                                                               
                                                                               
  Number 309                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.  VORDERSTRASSE  responded  that  the  public  perceived                 
  public officials as  unethical.  She noted  that assumptions                 
  got people into trouble.                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 326                                                                   
                                                                               
  SEN. JACKO asked  Mrs. Vorderstrasse  if she attributed  her                 
  perception that legislators engaged in unethical behavior to                 
  the media or to her prior work as a legislative staffer.                     
                                                                               
  Number 330                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE  said that  she did  not attribute  it to                 
  either  the media or her tenure as  a legislative aide.  She                 
  said that each  individual had her or his own  set of morals                 
  and ethics.                                                                  
                                                                               
  Number 351                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT  asked Mrs.  Vorderstrasse  if she  had any  close                 
  economic associations or personal relationships with  anyone                 
  involved in state government.                                                
                                                                               
  Number 363                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE replied that she did not.                                 
                                                                               
  Number 367                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP.  KOTT asked  Mrs. Vorderstrasse  to tell him  about the                 
  business that she owned, Border Ventures.                                    
                                                                               
  Number 370                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE indicated that she  and her husband owned                 
  Border Ventures, a general contracting business.                             
                                                                               
  Number 379                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT  asked if  Border Ventures  had been  a successful                 
  business.                                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 381                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE replied that the business had its ups and                 
  downs, like any other business.                                              
                                                                               
  Number 388                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PORTER asked  Mrs. Vorderstrasse  if she  had read  the                 
  ethics law.                                                                  
                                                                               
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE responded that she had read it.                           
                                                                               
  REP.  PORTER  commented  that  as  a  member of  the  ethics                 
  committee, Mrs.  Vorderstrasse would be  applying the ethics                 
  law to a given  situation and not her  own personal code  of                 
  ethics.   He asked  what she would  do in  the event  that a                 
  provision of the ethics  law did not mesh with  her personal                 
  code of ethics.                                                              
                                                                               
  Number 399                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE replied  that she would apply  the ethics                 
  law to the situation,  because it was the guideline  used by                 
  the committee.                                                               
                                                                               
  Number 403                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP.  PHILLIPS  asked Mrs.  Vorderstrasse  if she  felt that                 
  legislators ought to  be held to  a higher ethical  standard                 
  than other individuals.                                                      
                                                                               
  Number 407                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE  said she  did feel  that they  should be                 
  held  to a  higher  ethical standard,  because  constituents                 
  entrusted  them with  the  authority to  act  in their  best                 
  interests and in the best interest of the state.                             
                                                                               
  Number 414                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS  asked Mrs. Vorderstrasse why she  felt it was                 
  important that the legislature have  an ethics committee and                 
  an ethics law.                                                               
                                                                               
  Number 417                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.  VORDERSTRASSE said it  was important  because everyone                 
  was entitled to due process.                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 425                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP.  GREEN  asked  Mrs.  Vorderstrasse  if she  would  view                 
  individuals of different  ages or genders  as being held  to                 
  different standards of ethical behavior.                                     
                                                                               
  Number 453                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE said that all  individuals should be held                 
  equally accountable for their behavior.                                      
                                                                               
  Number 470                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP.  GREEN commented  on  geographical differences  in  how                 
  behavior  was  perceived.   He  asked if  Mrs. Vorderstrasse                 
                                                                               
                                                                               
  would  take into account a  person's background and age when                 
  evaluating a complaint brought before the ethics committee.                  
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE replied  that age should have  no bearing                 
  on the decisions made by the ethics committee.                               
                                                                               
  Number 511                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. GREEN  asked  Mrs. Vorderstrasse  if  she, as  a  young                 
  person, would be more or less tolerant than an older person.                 
                                                                               
  Number 521                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE responded  that the ethics committee  had                 
  to follow certain  guidelines, and age was  irrelevant.  She                 
  added that her  standards were not  the same as every  other                 
  person her age.                                                              
                                                                               
  Number 534                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP.  GREEN  asked   Mrs.  Vorderstrasse  if  she   were  an                 
  influential person, or one who was easily influenced.                        
                                                                               
  Number 543                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.  VORDERSTRASSE reiterated  that she  made decisions  on                 
  what she heard.  She noted that she would have to  live with                 
  the decisions that she made.                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 556                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT requested  that Mrs. Vorderstrasse comment  on tax                 
  problems that Border Ventures had.                                           
                                                                               
  Number 562                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE said that she had filed her payroll taxes                 
  late  on  several  occasions,  but  the situation  had  been                 
  resolved.                                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 589                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS asked Mrs. Vorderstrasse  about her ability to                 
  spend time in Juneau for extended  periods of time on ethics                 
  committee business.                                                          
                                                                               
  Number 597                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE mentioned  that she had a  seven-year-old                 
  daughter, but her husband was  supportive of her application                 
  to serve on the ethics committee.  She reiterated her belief                 
  that spending time in Juneau would not be a problem.                         
                                                                               
  Number 609                                                                   
                                                                               
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked Mrs. Vorderstrasse  if she had seen or                 
  perceived unethical  behavior in  the legislature  while she                 
  was working for Rep. MacLean.                                                
                                                                               
  Number 617                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE replied  that public officials had  to be                 
  responsible.  As  a school board  member, she felt a  strong                 
  responsibility  to  be  ethical.    She  noted  that  public                 
  officials were constantly in the spotlight.                                  
                                                                               
  Number 632                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN TAYLOR repeated  his question about whether  or not                 
  Mrs. Vorderstrasse had seen or perceived  unethical behavior                 
  among legislators, while she was working for Rep. MacLean.                   
                                                                               
  Number 634                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.  VORDERSTRASSE  said that  she  had not  seen unethical                 
  behavior  in  the legislature,  nor  did she  believe  it to                 
  exist.                                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 639                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN TAYLOR noted that Mrs. Vorderstrasse had spent most                 
  of her life in Barrow.  He  asked if she had been working in                 
  Barrow at the time of the "North Slope scandal."                             
                                                                               
  Number 649                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE replied  that she  was not involved  with                 
  the borough at  all at the time  of the scandal.   She added                 
  that her  business had had  contracts with  the North  Slope                 
  Borough, but not at the time of the scandal.  She  said that                 
  at the time it had  been very difficult for her  business to                 
  get work because  borough officials gave contracts  to other                 
  contractors.                                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 668                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN  TAYLOR   asked  if  Mrs.  Vorderstrasse  had  been                 
  referring  to  North Slope  Borough  officials in  her cover                 
  letter when  she  said  that  some  leaders  had  not  acted                 
  properly.                                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 671                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.  VORDERSTRASSE  indicated  that  Chairman  Taylor   was                 
  correct.   She said  that, in her cover  letter, she was not                 
  referring to what she had seen in the legislative arena, but                 
  rather in the North Slope Borough.                                           
                                                                               
                                                                               
  Number 675                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if the behavior of North Slope Borough                 
  officials was a disappointment to her.                                       
                                                                               
  Number 678                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS.  VORDERSTRASSE said that it was  a disappointment.  She                 
  noted that the  borough's debt service had skyrocketed  as a                 
  result,  and that  the citizens  of the  borough  were still                 
  paying for the scandal.                                                      
                                                                               
  Number 680                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. FINKELSTEIN asked Mrs. Vorderstrasse if, as a member of                 
  the school board, she filed conflict  of interest forms with                 
  APOC.                                                                        
                                                                               
  Number 686                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE said that she did.                                        
                                                                               
  Number 687                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. FINKELSTEIN stated that the chairman might want to look                 
  into  that  issue,  due   to  Mrs.  Vorderstrasse's  related                 
  response on a questionnaire.                                                 
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN  TAYLOR  asked if  it would  be  true that  if Mrs.                 
  Vorderstrasse  were  confirmed,  she  might  merely need  to                 
  resign from the school board.                                                
                                                                               
  Number 687                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. FINKELSTEIN said that the chairman was correct,  but he                 
  wanted  to  bring  the matter  up  in  the  event that  Mrs.                 
  Vorderstrasse did not want to resign from the school board.                  
                                                                               
  Number 699                                                                   
                                                                               
  MRS. VORDERSTRASSE said  that she was  aware of the need  to                 
  resign  from  the school  board in  the  event that  she was                 
  confirmed.                                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 703                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN  TAYLOR thanked  Mrs.  Vorderstrasse for  appearing                 
  before  the  committee  and  said  that he  appreciated  her                 
  candor.  He said the committee  would reconvene at 4:00 p.m.                 
  the following day.                                                           
                                                                               
  ADJOURNMENT                                                                  
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN TAYLOR adjourned the meeting at 5:51 p.m.                           

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